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Sir Alf 10:04 Thu May 4
Cullen in Play Off Final

Bradford creativity largely through him. He reminds me a bit of Joe Allen. A tidy footballer, good passing, and importantly some pace who looks like he could play a part in and around the first team squad based on this.

Alex V 3:02 Wed May 10
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

>>> So what principles do you think we lack from the top then?

Too much short-termism - reactive not pro-active. Pragmatist managers rather than forward-thinking coaches. No promotion of youth. Trying to buy progress rather than produce it. Poor facilities. Probably a lack of sports science, modern coaching and related. Lack of synergy between youth and senior philosophies. No DoF or equivalent to oversee progress or cohesion.

Etc.

Mex Martillo 7:20 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Barca have a good youth program.

The basis is that all teams at all levels play 4-3-3 with more or less the players in each position expected to do the same thing. This way all players know their position and know how to play in that position. I am sure this helps train players and also helps spot good players that can play in that position at the next level.

I have often thought I would love to see West Ham do the same with 4-4-2, but having seen Bilics teams this year could also be interesting to try 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 as at times 4-4-2 does not work well against some teams.

AlvinMartinAllen 6:45 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

"Rejecting the fairy tale of loans doesn't mean that I have a replacement fairy tale to offer. What the best strategy is for youth development would probably be different for each club and each circumstance. What I do know is that principles have to come from the top down - they have to be core to the club."

So what principles do you think we lack from the top then?

Side of Ham 5:43 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

The crux of why we don't do well with our youth recruitment is we are 3rd in our own catchment area alone, behind both Chelsea and Spurs.

If you can swap this out we might (MIGHT) stand a chance of getting back our reputation for bringing through decent youth product.

Lily Hammer 5:05 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Chelsea just buy up all the good players they can, partly in the hope that they come good, good enough to use at Chelsea, and partly so that they will never play against Chelsea.

Alex V 4:24 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

>>> So again, Alex, what is this better alternative to youth production the football world are getting wrong?

Rejecting the fairy tale of loans doesn't mean that I have a replacement fairy tale to offer. What the best strategy is for youth development would probably be different for each club and each circumstance. What I do know is that principles have to come from the top down - they have to be core to the club.

Grumpster 4:11 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Last 3 players I've rated when watching matches have all turned out to be Chelsea loanee's and all in different countries.

Had never heard of any of them other than Traore for Ajax, but didn't realise he was a Chelsea player either.

Ridiculous really.

Eerie Descent 3:53 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

I think you're all missing the point of what V is saying.

What he is saying is that the loan system is not of benefit to young players. Not always. But sometimes it is. Just not every time. In some cases it benefits a player, but not in every case. It all depends on the Straw Man.

Trevor B 3:52 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

AMA

It's impossible to argue with V about this, he is convinced that we have let plenty of youngster go who, had they been thrust into the PL with us, would now be world class players. The fact they they have moved on and done nothing of note since doesn't seem to mean a think, it's our fault for not pushing them into the limelight!

AlvinMartinAllen 3:48 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Alex V 3:18 Tue May 9

So again, Alex, what is this better alternative to youth production the football world are getting wrong?

With the vast amount of money in the PL it has created competition where it's full of experienced players/internationals that make it logically tough for youth players to shine/prove they are worthy of a place in sides. How do you envisage an improvement on youth development in that environment, without relying on loans to lower leagues to gauge the level of ability/character of the player?

Trevor B 3:34 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Bernie

agreed, in terms of a profitable business they are well run. each player is treated as an asset, not a player. but id like to think there is a decent balance between being a well run business and being a well run club.

Bernie 3:26 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Chelsea is absolutely what we should NOT be run like. Having hundreds of players, many of which won't ever get a chance to play for the first team.

When the manager decides he needs new players, he doesn't pick them from the riches of the youth system, he spends hundreds of millions of pounds on already proven players

An utter waste. The only reason they have their 'youth' system is for profit.

I want my football club to be run like a football club thanks

Alex V 3:19 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

JustAFatKevinDavies 3:14 Tue May 9

What Chelsea do is not what we should do - I've only said in the past that I see the logic of it. I don't think we should aspire to be anything like Chelsea.

Alex V 3:18 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

>>> Do you not think work experience has any value?

No I think it has some value. I don't think all loans are totally worthless - I think many are. The value of any work experience is dependent on what the actual experience is.

JustAFatKevinDavies 3:14 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

this argument of V is brilliant especially when he argues Chelsea are one of the best run clubs and one we should aspire to be like....

who have about 30 players out on loan a season

AlvinMartinAllen 3:11 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Tomkins already had a few appearances for us before going out on loan. So had been in and around the squad like Oxford. The Derby loan would have been because he was surplus and better served getting a bit of experience.

Do you not think work experience has any value?

Alex V 3:07 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Even using Tomkins as an example, was the month he spent on loan really the telling factor in his development? Or was it the 10 years prior that he'd spent in our youth system?

Roeder-nowhere 1:22 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Non qualified conjecture?? lol What a cretinous thing to say on a foitball forum!!

Talking about our youth system and how effective loans are in development, who was the last youth product to make it into the first team regularly??

Tomkins, some 8 years or more ago??Working well then!!!?

Ashy 2:14 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

The loaning to lower league clubs has to be beneficial in that they are playing in matches for clubs that are in proper competition situations where team mates livelyhoods are at stake, rather than u23 developement competitions.
Real FA cup games and league games with pressure to perform has to be beneficial in developing players and giving them valuable experience. If they can't learn how to handle that then there is little chance they'll make it in the prem.
In Cullen's case he's about to play in the biggest match at that level and if he can handle that pressure and the occasion then still perform then he should certainly be getting a look in around the 1st team squad to continue his development next season.
Whether that happens or not is up to Bilic and hus coaching staff I guess.

the exile 2:04 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Yes, who is this fucking straw man, and why is he so argumentative? I'll give him a piece of Gank's mind.

Side of Ham 12:59 Tue May 9
Re: Cullen in Play Off Final

Lot of non qualified conjecture on your part AlexV yet again.Like all football clubs they will have peaks and troughs on youth product. I'd say the key reason we struggle on this now is that we have Chelsea and Spurs both heavily doing scouting in the seemly rich wealth of talent found in East London/Essex so even within our catchment area alone we have 2 bigger clubs reducing our pool of youth talent to pick from so we struggle. On the other hand Southampton for a long while have been able to pick from virtually all of the South Coast and into the South West, the likes of Bournemouth could weaken that though.

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